Language Script needed

Archive of notes and cross input on Dev versions of Coranto (1.25.1 and Older)

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Postby LoneOwl » Thu May 05, 2005 3:08 pm

Having the fall back being the English could simply be by using the English version as well. If each language set is included in it's own package, with a root language package, so that Coranto includes the root language package, and that package redirects it's calls to a second package via @ISA, it would be possible to still require the english version as well without conflicting problems. Granted it's using an object oriented style, but it has it's benefits. I personally just have a dislike for repeating information, like the same sentance.

When it comes to trying other languages, a few come to mine. The Celtic languages(I'm partially particular to Irish, but that's beside the point) have a verb-subject-object style. Klingon is an object-verb-subject language. I know with Irish, certain words affect the spelling of the following word. It can be confusing. Plus there can be gender issues.... So far Coranto's been translated into other languages without too many complaints, but only a handful. I know of Swedish and Portuguese, but that's it. I don't think it's been translated to a single non indo-european language which just might help indicate areas where changes could help. There's probably a faq somewhere about internationalization and decent methods...

By rechecking your code, I noticed the "zero" possibility, even though it's called negative in the code. That part did throw me off. Probably doesn't help maintaining it? :wink:

The capacity to support 5,500 languages could be pushing it, but it isn't pushing it to say that many of the major languages should be supported. It might be possible to write a decent method that can incorporate all evolved languages(not invented ones made up only to screw up common logic i18n).

I am a tad curious about what the best method for addon integration would be... If only multiplicity of languages was eliminated.... Not to mention that there's American English, British English, Canadian English, Australian English.....
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Postby Parahead » Tue May 10, 2005 5:38 pm

LoneOwl wrote:By rechecking your code, I noticed the "zero" possibility, even though it's called negative in the code. That part did throw me off. Probably doesn't help maintaining it? :wink:
I more or less used the pseudo code from the Locale::Maketext module.

LoneOwl wrote:I am a tad curious about what the best method for addon integration would be... If only multiplicity of languages was eliminated.... Not to mention that there's American English, British English, Canadian English, Australian English.....
I haven´t thought that much about how to add language support for addons yet, I don´t know if backward compatibility should limit functionality either. I mean, if we add support for i18n for addons, an addon that depends on this might not work with older Coranto versions. Depending on how it is done...

Anyway, the current *example* language file which is basically english -> english can be found here. Do you have any feedback on that one? LoneOwl, I have thought about it some more and I agree that the english file could be really slim if only the necessary sentances existed in the file (the long ones which requires a shorter key). I don´t know if the 'legal' stuff during setup *should* be translated? SomeGuyNamedJim, do you think this can be something to work with? Do you have suggestions on how to make it easier for you to use through the translation script of yours?
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Postby LoneOwl » Wed May 11, 2005 2:30 am

I would shorten some of the keys... A coder would know that for something like "Testing files and paths: sucessful" instead of ""Testing paths and file permissions... all tests were successful. The paths you entered seem correct, as do file permissions." That way it can more easily fit in the screen so you don't have to scroll to find it.

I think using %Messages can maintain backwards compatability, and that a tied hash could help a lot in some instances. I'll have to think about it some more.... Being able to translate addons should be a must... Since some of the messages could be used for an addon as well, perhaps tags for like "[_1] Setup" and the like, would be beneficial for addons. For a lot of addons, they may not have complicated language strings outside those used within the core.
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Postby Parahead » Wed May 11, 2005 8:38 am

LoneOwl wrote:I would shorten some of the keys... A coder would know that for something like "Testing files and paths: sucessful" instead of ""Testing paths and file permissions... all tests were successful. The paths you entered seem correct, as do file permissions." That way it can more easily fit in the screen so you don't have to scroll to find it.
I have not done any work on the actual sentances, I have only extracted the allready existing ones from the core. As you know I am not a native english speaker so I have not put any focus on this part, I happily leave this to others. The sentance you refer to isn´t ment for coders though, it is ment for anyone who setup Coranto and thus have a "lighter" tone? The message is presented at the top of screen 2 during the setup process and there is no need to scroll? It has been in the core for quite some time but of course, if we feel that the sentances used both during setup and in Coranto in general it is a good point to do this review? I don´t think it should be a coder doing that though, but a native speaking english (advanced) user?

LoneOwl wrote:I think using %Messages can maintain backwards compatability, and that a tied hash could help a lot in some instances. I'll have to think about it some more.... Being able to translate addons should be a must... Since some of the messages could be used for an addon as well, perhaps tags for like "[_1] Setup" and the like, would be beneficial for addons. For a lot of addons, they may not have complicated language strings outside those used within the core.
Yes, to some extent sentances like "[_1] Setup" could be used, but I have tried to avoid this approach in the current language file in order not to be caught in a corner when translating to a specific language for some reason. An example is the "back to Administration" vs. "back to the Main Page" Should we produce a "back to [_1]" and hope that the equviavelent to "back to " in all languages is the same regardless of [_1]?
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Postby LoneOwl » Fri May 13, 2005 1:51 pm

I only selected that out at random of the ones that were more detailed. There are several like that. The scrolling I was refering to was during editting of the file, which relates to the maintaining of the script.

For the "back to ..." example, whatever was replaced in the [_1] would have to be translated as well, and to do that it would then need to call back into the hash. But I think all "back to [proper noun]" should be fairly similar. The only issues I can think of that would arise would also arise just from the whole manner in which it's being done so there'd be no need changing it unless you were to change all of it.
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Postby Parahead » Fri May 13, 2005 2:17 pm

LoneOwl wrote:I only selected that out at random of the ones that were more detailed. There are several like that. The scrolling I was refering to was during editting of the file, which relates to the maintaining of the script.
OK, but the editting of the file wouldn´t be done that way, when doing a translation the script SomeGuyNamedJim is working on should be used? And once again, I have not done anything in regards to the actual sentances, if you feel up for "improving" them I see nothing wrong with that, it is good to do that before starting to doing bulk translation. :-)

LoneOwl wrote:For the "back to ..." example, whatever was replaced in the [_1] would have to be translated as well, and to do that it would then need to call back into the hash. But I think all "back to [proper noun]" should be fairly similar. The only issues I can think of that would arise would also arise just from the whole manner in which it's being done so there'd be no need changing it unless you were to change all of it.
I am a little bit curious of what issues you are refering to? Can the solution I have presented (which basically is a slimmed version of the Locale::Maketext module) be improved in an easy way to handle those issues? I really am not trying to work against you LoneOwl to make a good solution, I am doing the best I can with my knowledge and just feel that the localisation solution shouldn´t be a major hazle and it should be easy for people to perform a translation. I feel that the solution I currently have suggested do fulfill these criterias and is better than what we use now. My current goal is to provide the community with a successor to the 1.30.11 release with equal or improved functionality in a not so distant future and the localisation is just one among many tasks that needs attention...

But I can of course send you the current code I am working on if you would like to make a review on it and suggest improvements or an alternative solution.
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Postby LoneOwl » Fri May 13, 2005 2:28 pm

Parahead wrote:
LoneOwl wrote:I only selected that out at random of the ones that were more detailed. There are several like that. The scrolling I was refering to was during editting of the file, which relates to the maintaining of the script.
OK, but the editting of the file wouldn´t be done that way, when doing a translation the script SomeGuyNamedJim is working on should be used? And once again, I have not done anything in regards to the actual sentances, if you feel up for "improving" them I see nothing wrong with that, it is good to do that before starting to doing bulk translation. :-)
I'm refering to the keys used in the core to link to the language hash/whatever. What's in the language file is another matter, since it will likely not be looked at too often.

Parahead wrote:
LoneOwl wrote:For the "back to ..." example, whatever was replaced in the [_1] would have to be translated as well, and to do that it would then need to call back into the hash. But I think all "back to [proper noun]" should be fairly similar. The only issues I can think of that would arise would also arise just from the whole manner in which it's being done so there'd be no need changing it unless you were to change all of it.
I am a little bit curious of what issues you are refering to? Can the solution I have presented (which basically is a slimmed version of the Locale::Maketext module) be improved in an easy way to handle those issues? I really am not trying to work against you LoneOwl to make a good solution, I am doing the best I can with my knowledge and just feel that the localisation solution shouldn´t be a major hazle and it should be easy for people to perform a translation. I feel that the solution I currently have suggested do fulfill these criterias and is better than what we use now. My current goal is to provide the community with a successor to the 1.30.11 release with equal or improved functionality in a not so distant future and the localisation is just one among many tasks that needs attention...

But I can of course send you the current code I am working on if you would like to make a review on it and suggest improvements or an alternative solution.
Over 5,500 languages and you think anyone can come close to providing an good universal framework? In the example I listed, possible issues with gender and some potential pronoun issues(like aspiration and eclipses, look up on Irish Gaelic to see what that is) are all I can think of and even then the potential isn't too great most likely. But, what I was meaning, was that most often, all those "back to"'s are for a proper noun, and as a result there shouldn' t be too much of a problem for the majority of languages.
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Postby Parahead » Fri May 13, 2005 5:27 pm

LoneOwl wrote:I'm refering to the keys used in the core to link to the language hash/whatever. What's in the language file is another matter, since it will likely not be looked at too often.
Aha, sorry... Still, if you feel that there is improvements that can be done on several sentances how would you like to proceed with that?

LoneOwl wrote:Over 5,500 languages and you think anyone can come close to providing an good universal framework?
No, but it feels like your ambition on the solution or demand for features are higher than mine? Or? ;-)

LoneOwl wrote:In the example I listed, possible issues with gender and some potential pronoun issues(like aspiration and eclipses, look up on Irish Gaelic to see what that is) are all I can think of and even then the potential isn't too great most likely. But, what I was meaning, was that most often, all those "back to"'s are for a proper noun, and as a result there shouldn' t be too much of a problem for the majority of languages.
OK, I will change all the "Back To"'s to be "Back To [_1]" instead...

The only problem that I can see is with the "Main Page", because the main page is called just that, "Main Page", so if using "Back To [_1]", this will be "Back To Main Page" instead of "Back To The Main Page"?

[EDIT]Nevermind, it looks OK with "Back To Main Page", since Main Page is linked. At least I think so, if any of you native english speakers don´t mind that is?[/EDIT]
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Postby LoneOwl » Sun May 15, 2005 11:39 pm

When it comes to software, it's often ok to leave out the article for a noun when hte noun's all by itself. Just look at the menubar.

For sentance improvements, it's mainly just how to fit as much readably into the screen as possible without line wrappinp. A shorter and more concise sentance is much easier for the programmer. At least the undocumenting programmers.

I like linguistics(yet can't speak any foreign languages), so I just like the idea of full and complete i18n... Of course...a language file that truly needed to expand on the core's language setup could have it's own interpreter written.... C'est la vie.
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Postby SomeGuyNamedJim » Tue May 17, 2005 11:51 pm

Latest version: here.
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Postby Parahead » Wed May 18, 2005 5:58 am

SomeGuyNamedJim wrote:Latest version: here.
Nice! Very nice! :-D

Have you run into any problem regarding how the crlang.pl file is looking now?

Just curious, does it produce a new file when submitting the form, or is that part not implemented yet? I tried to submit a simple change but I got a blank page?

Does it work to use the original sentance as the name of the textareas? I mean, using strange characters, spaces and such? If not, how would you like to change the crlang.pl file to work better for you? Something like this?
Code: Select all
q~orignal sentance~ => #unique_short_key
  q~translated sentance~,

Or?

Just thinking loud here, but is the name column needed to be displayed?
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Postby SomeGuyNamedJim » Fri May 20, 2005 12:34 am

Latest version: here.
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Postby Parahead » Tue May 24, 2005 7:56 pm

SomeGuyNamedJim wrote:Latest version: here.
Once again, nice! :-D

What do you feel is the next step with your script? Do you feel everything is the way you want or is something missing in the crlang.pl file? Should the files be able to be edited afterwards (a wiki-approach)?

Does any of you admins (SrNupsen, dragn) have any feedback in this matter?
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Postby SrNupsen » Tue May 24, 2005 8:09 pm

Setting up a wiki would be overkill, I think - it's a limited amount of text, and no need for more than 1or 2 persons handling it.

Other than that, I think the setup looks nice - I just translated the www.browsershot.org interface into Norwegian, and was kind of frustrated over the lack of info - you can't just say "here's a string, now translate it", you also got to explain where the string is used, or else its meaning will be ambiguos. So I think dividing it into sections like it's done here is a nice thing.

Other than that - keep in mind that the amount of work put into making translation as easy as possible shouldn't be greater than the actual time needed to translate. So once we are about satisifed with the setup, I suggest we go ahead and translate!

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Postby Parahead » Wed May 25, 2005 6:27 am

SrNupsen wrote:Setting up a wiki would be overkill, I think - it's a limited amount of text, and no need for more than 1or 2 persons handling it.
1-2 persons per language that is... And just to clearify what I ment by wiki: Currently if you load up a languge file 'crlang_swedish.pl' and then resave it, it will be called 'crlang_swedish.1.pl' instead of overwriting the orignal langfile. Is this the desired approach?

SrNupsen wrote:Other than that, I think the setup looks nice - I just translated the www.browsershot.org interface into Norwegian, and was kind of frustrated over the lack of info - you can't just say "here's a string, now translate it", you also got to explain where the string is used, or else its meaning will be ambiguos. So I think dividing it into sections like it's done here is a nice thing.
Yeah, that was the purpose to put the sentances in perspective... :-) Would you like to see even more info for each individual sentance? Like "used as a label on a button" or similar (when needed)?

SrNupsen wrote:Other than that - keep in mind that the amount of work put into making translation as easy as possible shouldn't be greater than the actual time needed to translate. So once we are about satisifed with the setup, I suggest we go ahead and translate!
Yes, I agree but we need to make sure that we are OK with the format of the language file, before we go ahead and do any translation work on mass. Addon support is an outstanding issue currently which *might* have an impact.

Another thing, we should collect e-mail address of anyone submitting a language file so that we can get in contact with them later on if needed to. Also, the languagefiles that where translated by fellow members of the community to the 1.30.x version of Coranto should serve as a starting point for anyone who whish to do translation? How would you (or dragn) like to procede with those files (maybe making them publicly available)?
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