Coranto 1.30.10

Archive of notes and cross input on Dev versions of Coranto (1.25.1 and Older)

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Postby cerberos76_ » Tue Mar 08, 2005 2:27 pm

Lownowl,
already now the Admin chooses if his site will public or not. That will remain as it is. The new version will simply be forced to respect the 'public/private' rules. These are set by the administrator of a site himself, so he is certainly aware of it...

Also think a bit wider. A lot of people I know of use Coranto in private mode in intranets or LANs for intra office or private communications between groups.
They simply need a reliable system which allows communications. Mostly they do not even care about latest features or additions, so prefer to keep real local the installation in private mode (this also because connection to an external source can always create a small security issue, like execution of ActiveX or other nasty code..).
Coranto addons:
* GuestPost, one click guestposting
* MoveIt!, Advanced Backup and site transfer
* PartialRebuild, CPU-friendly enhancement of FullBuild
* URLColumn, URLs for multiple Categories/Profiles
* Tickit!, Javascript News Tickers/Faders for Coranto!
* AddonEnabler, enables or disables single, multiple or all addons in one go
* SubmitMultiple, post consecutive news in an automatic loop!
* RSSAdvanced, RelatedNews ....

Get them at: http://coranto.gweilo.org/addons/
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Postby Parahead » Tue Mar 08, 2005 8:14 pm

msbzdragn wrote:
Parahead wrote:One thing to consider is how important the Public/Private-option is. If a user has set the option to Private, should the Version Check(s) and/or Urgent Notification override this setting? In both the old check (Coranto 1.24) and the current one these checks to a third party domain is performed.
Don't have time to answer the other stuff right now, but if the installation is set to private, in my opinion the version check and urgent notification should definitely be disabled.
I was to fast with this assumption, the Version Check and Urgent Notification *is* working just as you describe dragn. I only looked at the actual code at the MainPage sub, not looking at how it worked at the Settings Page, where the dropdown options are disabled when the privacy option is set to Private.

cerberos76 wrote:I can bring many examples of exceptionally good software programs which made the stupid choice to have a version checking enabled and not switchable by the user. These programs became obsolete (or at minimum not professionally looking) once their maintainer disappeared or changed his plans.
I am not saying that the version checking shouldn´t be switchable by the user. It has been and will continue to be.

cerberos76 wrote:As we have seen both amphibianweb and this same site had trouble in the past (even in the last 6 months!) to keep some supporting functions alive and updated. This might happen for 1000 reasons, often nothing to do with the capacity of the site owner or its interests. But happens.
This problem applies even if you have it as an addon?

cerberos76 wrote:If the problem is how many users will use it, of course you can question how useful is this function if no-one would download it... But even then distributing the addon in the package auto-enabled to start with is certainly making almost as in the core.
We are only talking about ~10 lines of code in the core, so I still think it should be there and making it easy for addons to override the version checking. This is not a strange procedure in Coranto...

About the Statistical gathering, there is allready a clause at the Settings Page in Coranto. If the Urgent Notification option is set to Yes, the user agrees to the fact that some info might be sent to the third party site. I think this is a fair deal, the user gets an Urgent Notification if needed and we get statistics... The question is only, what information is fair to collect?

To easier discuss this I have put together an addon that basically replaces the normal MainPage sub with a new one, which basically is the MainPage sub that *I* think is how it should look like and has the functionality I think it should have. It is possible to present the statistical information on the Main Page so you can have a look yourself what info *might* be submitted. The addon does it version checks towards coranto.gwe ilo.org as default, but it also contains an example of a sub/hook an addon migth use to override the normal version checking. When this is done in the addon the version check is done towards cerberos site. Check out the documentation within the addon!

Download here

One thing that isn´t really good with the "old" version check is the Urgent Notification URL. It should really be a separate URL like cerberos has implemented it in 1.30.9, that would make it easier to present a text/image if needed. This needs to be addressed regarding the scripts here at CTUS.
Yes, I am still around...
www.parahead.com/coranto/
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Postby cerberos76_ » Tue Mar 08, 2005 11:59 pm

Parahead,
thanks for the contribution. I will give a look to it, but I repeat that no code will be in the core to do the tracking.

The main part of my message was very clear separation of responsabilities between core and version checking addon.
This not only for clean programming practices, but also to make clear where legal responsabilities stand.

If this site (or other tracking site) looses or is incapble of properly secure private data (as happened in the past; and I have proof of it), I do not want to be responsible or associated with this data loss or unauthorised publication of private data and I do not wish that the responsible code is in the core.

As an addon, there will (must) be somebody responsible for it, which will have to take care of the coding of the tracking functions, securing/processing the relative information and all associated updates or conformance to laws.

BTW: I can ensure you for a fact (as I am implementing programs which abide to this law...) that the note that is at present in Coranto is NOT sufficient to satisfy privacy stringet laws which are in function in some countries (I can provide full details of this in private if you wish).
The legal consequences of such collection and data treatment must be with the owner of the addon.
Coranto addons:
* GuestPost, one click guestposting
* MoveIt!, Advanced Backup and site transfer
* PartialRebuild, CPU-friendly enhancement of FullBuild
* URLColumn, URLs for multiple Categories/Profiles
* Tickit!, Javascript News Tickers/Faders for Coranto!
* AddonEnabler, enables or disables single, multiple or all addons in one go
* SubmitMultiple, post consecutive news in an automatic loop!
* RSSAdvanced, RelatedNews ....

Get them at: http://coranto.gweilo.org/addons/
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Postby LoneOwl » Wed Mar 09, 2005 3:40 am

Hmmm..... Technically, isn't all work done on the core considered illegal?

Anyway, laws change....the internet connects so many nations with so many laws.... Legalities on the internet are tricky issues. Plus then there are organizational rules. For my school email account, I can get in trouble for recieving copyrighted material, for having someone without my consent send me something that's copyrighted!

Now, which nation's laws are we just going to ignore because we don't care about them? All but the US and EU, and maybe Japan as well?

As far as I can tell, one of the main reasons you want it out of the core is to say "if anything bad happens, it's not my fault."
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Postby SrNupsen » Wed Mar 09, 2005 11:11 am

LoneOwl wrote:As far as I can tell, one of the main reasons you want it out of the core is to say "if anything bad happens, it's not my fault."


...which should be sufficient. At least it is for me.

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Postby cerberos76_ » Wed Mar 09, 2005 3:09 pm

LoneOwl wrote:Hmmm..... Technically, isn't all work done on the core considered illegal?


Absolutely no.
Technically there is only one single person who might claim rights on the code which is written in the core. He would have to demonstrate somehow his position (not very easy given such a long time passed and most of the proof of his identity lapsed). He could claim as his the code anyone has written in the core, but not much more. If we infringed any trademark, he could sue also for that. But I believe he never registered Coranto enywhere in the word. So legally the worst is loss of ownership for some code.

Entirely different (I can ensure you) is the case in which you are responsible for unauthorised publication of data from third parties. In this case you expose yourself to multiple lawsuits in many countries with severe potential penalties.


Anyway, laws change....the internet connects so many nations with so many laws.... Legalities on the internet are tricky issues. Plus then there are organizational rules.


Sorry, this is your opinion. I respect current laws in the country I live in.
If they change, I adapt to them. If necessary I make pressure trhough the right channels to make sure politicians act in line with my needs.
But laws are there to give clear guidance.

Now, which nation's laws are we just going to ignore because we don't care about them? All but the US and EU, and maybe Japan as well?

If you wish information about privacy laws, you can easily do a search trough your information channels. If you don't take laws seriously it is your problem and you are welcome to risk on your own.

As far as I can tell, one of the main reasons you want it out of the core is to say "if anything bad happens, it's not my fault."

Any professional in the field of ITC takes steps both to make sure that responsabilities are clear and to make sure he is in control of the parts of work he is responsible for. I have stated multiple times that separating the responsabilities of the core programmers from the responsabilities of any addon is a necessary step.
I will take responsabilities for what I do and I can control. I will not take responsability for any site I do not have control of (specially if in the past it demonstrated unreliable in terms of securing data).
Coranto addons:
* GuestPost, one click guestposting
* MoveIt!, Advanced Backup and site transfer
* PartialRebuild, CPU-friendly enhancement of FullBuild
* URLColumn, URLs for multiple Categories/Profiles
* Tickit!, Javascript News Tickers/Faders for Coranto!
* AddonEnabler, enables or disables single, multiple or all addons in one go
* SubmitMultiple, post consecutive news in an automatic loop!
* RSSAdvanced, RelatedNews ....

Get them at: http://coranto.gweilo.org/addons/
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Postby SrNupsen » Wed Mar 09, 2005 4:23 pm

cerberos76 wrote:I will not take responsability for any site I do not have control of (specially if in the past it demonstrated unreliable in terms of securing data).


So if you (or anybody else) write an addon that collects data and store them on a site, and the data becomes public, who of the following is to be held responsible?

a) the addon author
b) the site's owner
c) the ISP

And if b) or c), what is the difference between a core collecting those data and an addon doing the same thing?

Are you basically saying that you don't want to be responsible for code collecting data in any form, in case those datas aren't properly protected by those storing them?

SrNupsen
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Coranto is free software. I am available for custom work or troubleshooting.

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Postby cerberos76_ » Wed Mar 09, 2005 5:00 pm

The third party damaged will decide who to sue.
In general it is custom practise to give responsability for malicious mishandling of data to the owner of the site which collected the data, as he should be the ultimate controller of what is happening with data that was trusted for his site.
The site owner might well also call the coder of the management/storage system for damages if it is proven that the weakness was in that system.

The ISP has only responsability if its service provision was not good (e.g. he advertised and set-up a secure channel and then the data was stolen trough that).

But what I said about the addon coder is NOT referring to the addon coding itself, as seems from your words.
I said that there is a need for someone who writes the addon (trivial) AND the back-end database storage and security maintainance (not trivial and subject to national laws on private data). This is a part which is entirely not related to the core and given its implications and strict dependency on the third party site, it must be exclusive responsability of the person who wishes to write and maintain it, and not pertinent to the core development.
Coranto addons:
* GuestPost, one click guestposting
* MoveIt!, Advanced Backup and site transfer
* PartialRebuild, CPU-friendly enhancement of FullBuild
* URLColumn, URLs for multiple Categories/Profiles
* Tickit!, Javascript News Tickers/Faders for Coranto!
* AddonEnabler, enables or disables single, multiple or all addons in one go
* SubmitMultiple, post consecutive news in an automatic loop!
* RSSAdvanced, RelatedNews ....

Get them at: http://coranto.gweilo.org/addons/
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Postby kriko » Wed Mar 09, 2005 5:13 pm

Hey guys,

I am not that up to date with laws in the US or even in the EU, there are way too many for me to know them all and make connections between them. That would require a high-level lawyer.

The way I understand it, Coranto is distributed under the license term "AS-IS" which should mean, to my knowledge, that the user should be happy with the software and can't go to court becase of damage he or she may have caused directly or indirectly by downloading/installing that software. So, since this is a free product, why should we, the community who works on it, worry so much about getting our bottoms sued into court? Besides, Coranto isn't spyware, there shouldn't be anything to worry about in the first place. :)

Let's just do it in a hounourable, honest and decent way - it's up to our hearts to know what's best for the user and for the community.

Honestly, I don't think I have yet seen so much legal discussion on a (free) software product except Coranto. ;) Let's concentrate on the code, not on the legal system. ;)

Just my two cents, as they say. ;)
Kristjan aka. kriko
now a wireless expert
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Postby SrNupsen » Wed Mar 09, 2005 5:38 pm

*Sueing kriko to get his two cents back*

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Coranto is free software. I am available for custom work or troubleshooting.

http://www.sundaune.no - transkripsjon, webdesign, nettsider, tekstbyrå
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Postby msbzdragn » Wed Mar 09, 2005 5:54 pm

Let's also consider the fact that this is free software, provided free of charge from a free website, under a license that essentially doesn't even really exist. To worry about this level of detail is honestly just pedantic.

If we're making this level of changes just to satisfy one person's fears, maybe that person needs to rethink their involvement. That's not a knock, but there is ALWAYS going to be something you could be worrying about that requires changes to the core - change for the sake of change is a BAD thing as it causes potential stability and compatibility problems for users.
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Do NOT send me instant messages asking for Coranto help without me telling you explicitly to do so. You WILL be placed on ignore if you do so; I don't have time to provide personal tech support to every person who IM's me. Sorry!
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Postby Parahead » Wed Mar 09, 2005 6:05 pm

cerberos76 wrote:Parahead,
thanks for the contribution. I will give a look to it, but I repeat that no code will be in the core to do the tracking.
I really was not aware that this is your decision to make? I thougth that we where having a discussion and trying to come to a common view on this? If this isnt´the case, why do I bother? :?:

If this site (or other tracking site) looses or is incapble of properly secure private data (as happened in the past; and I have proof of it), I do not want to be responsible or associated with this data loss or unauthorised publication of private data and I do not wish that the responsible code is in the core.
To my knowledge there is only one person around here that has explistly said the he except the legal responsibilty to distribute Coranto and that is dragn. This isn´t changed if the version check is done trough an addon or not. My question to you is what are your plans with the version check? Is it really a concern about the legal stuff or will you distribute an addon yourself which present a version-image and collects statistics?

If we where really worried about the legal stuff around collecting data, why not just drop that then instead? This can be done by including an image on a server like coranto.gwe ilo.org/version_images/current_stable.gif. Yes, it wouldn´t allow us to change the image depending on the actual version the user has installed (to present an UPGRADE-image). This can be solved as well, though, by having a bunch of images, one for each version released, like coranto.gwe ilo.org/version_images/cr_1_24.gif and then change it accordingly when a new release is made.

I respect current laws in the country I live in.
If they change, I adapt to them. If necessary I make pressure trhough the right channels to make sure politicians act in line with my needs.
Since you are from Italy, I do not even want to know what you mean by "right channels"... :lol: ;-) *sorry, couldn´t resist*
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Postby msbzdragn » Wed Mar 09, 2005 6:07 pm

Parahead wrote:
cerberos76 wrote:Parahead,
thanks for the contribution. I will give a look to it, but I repeat that no code will be in the core to do the tracking.
I really was not aware that this is your decision to make? I thougth that we where having a discussion and trying to come to a common view on this? If this isnt´the case, why do I bother? :?:


You're quite correct that it is not his decision to make. He can make a recommendation to me, but it is my choice where I follow it or not.
Michael R. Tomkins
Administrator, 'Unofficial Coranto / NewsPro Forums'

Mitsubishi Diamante Forum

Do NOT send me instant messages asking for Coranto help without me telling you explicitly to do so. You WILL be placed on ignore if you do so; I don't have time to provide personal tech support to every person who IM's me. Sorry!
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Postby cerberos76_ » Wed Mar 09, 2005 7:18 pm

I have simply replied to questions that were asked by poeple who (I guess) wish to learn about this subject. I am not saying that somebody is going to be sued, but I am saying that for any project I am involved with I want to see very clearly who is responsible for what, as you cannot predict the future and software-related sues apply to free software as well (privacy laws by certain do not make any exceptions for free software).

I don't like changes for the sake of changes, but only to improve.
And a request for changes has been brought up by Dragon in the first place as he did not like the image display being run from one of my sites.
And after review of that code I said I agree with a full revision in that area to make thing much better than they are now.

For parahead:
If I write an addon displaying data in Coranto, I will take any responsability of any related data that might be passed back. This is the same as for any other addon out there now. It has nothing to do with the core.

For your suggestion of an image display: yes can be easily done, what is the problem? Once you hook in that place of the core you can display via an addon whatever you wish. So I do not see any problem for you (or anyoneelse) implementing such function in an addon.

For dragn: I think you should be grateful of all the work done and thank those who do contributed. Too many times I heard only complaints and disagreements. Your opinion is taken into account, but on technical matters (such this) the person who is caring the core should decide on features for Coranto and features out of Coranto (addons).

For the other comments:
I think most of you you are loosing sight of the real goals which are to make Coranto better and simpler, so to diminuish the risks for any problems. This is my view, and if I can separate functionality and remove it in a separate module/addon, that is for me progress.
This specially and most of all if this modules has by definition to call an external server from Coranto. This poses a potential concern (for me it is; at least if I don't trust that server) and a secure issue for longevity of the program.
Coranto addons:
* GuestPost, one click guestposting
* MoveIt!, Advanced Backup and site transfer
* PartialRebuild, CPU-friendly enhancement of FullBuild
* URLColumn, URLs for multiple Categories/Profiles
* Tickit!, Javascript News Tickers/Faders for Coranto!
* AddonEnabler, enables or disables single, multiple or all addons in one go
* SubmitMultiple, post consecutive news in an automatic loop!
* RSSAdvanced, RelatedNews ....

Get them at: http://coranto.gweilo.org/addons/
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Postby msbzdragn » Wed Mar 09, 2005 7:32 pm

cerberos76 wrote:And a request for changes has been brought up by Dragon in the first place as he did not like the image display being run from one of my sites.
And after review of that code I said I agree with a full revision in that area to make thing much better than they are now.


Im sorry, but that is bending the truth. You changed it without reference to anybody else; I requested it be changed BACK to point back to this site. I did not bring up a "request for changes ... in the first place".

I still do not believe it is necessary to change this. Not only that, but having seen Parahead's demonstration version checking addon in action on Coranto v1.24, it has become apparent to me that *no* changes are necessary in the core to allow an addon to replace the version checking feature with a different routine, so I'm really starting to wonder why we are debating this.

For dragn: I think you should be grateful of all the work done and thank those who do contributed. Too many times I heard only complaints and disagreements. Your opinion is taken into account, but on technical matters (such this) the person who is caring the core should decide on features for Coranto and features out of Coranto (addons).


I'm sorry Cerb - I give praise where it is due, and have praised your contributions in the past. At the end of the day though, I am the one who has the legal responsibility for what is distributed on this site - and hence I can be the *only* one who decides what is distributed here. I cannot praise continuous attempts to bully me into bending to your will.

For the other comments:
I think most of you you are loosing sight of the real goals which are to make Coranto better and simpler, so to diminuish the risks for any problems. This is my view, and if I can separate functionality and remove it in a separate module/addon, that is for me progress.
This specially and most of all if this modules has by definition to call an external server from Coranto. This poses a potential concern (for me it is; at least if I don't trust that server) and a secure issue for longevity of the program.


If Coranto users are concerned about security, they have the ability to disable version checking and calls to external servers altogether. So this is really a moot point.

As for making Coranto "better and simpler", you're bickering about something which at most would cause a broken image and a broken link even if this site disappeared altogether (which it won't). Other broken links - such as the "power by" link and the link from the top of every page in the script - would also be caused, but I don't hear you complaining about those.

If I specifically state that I am not going to allow your version of the script to be released here if certain changes are made, then it is not for you "to progress" those changes if you want it to be released here.
Michael R. Tomkins
Administrator, 'Unofficial Coranto / NewsPro Forums'

Mitsubishi Diamante Forum

Do NOT send me instant messages asking for Coranto help without me telling you explicitly to do so. You WILL be placed on ignore if you do so; I don't have time to provide personal tech support to every person who IM's me. Sorry!
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