Coranto 1.30.10

Archive of notes and cross input on Dev versions of Coranto (1.25.1 and Older)

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Postby SrNupsen » Sun Mar 06, 2005 10:55 am

Michael - sorry, but I think you're out of line here, and I'll be happy to discuss it with you in a more private place.

I just wanted to make the point that no, I'm definitely not among the persons spending the most time on Coranto - that honor belongs to kriko, Parahead and cerberos IMO.

Underneath all the flaming, I found reasonable arguments in this thread to make the version checking an addon, enabled by default.

What do you say, Michael?

SrNupsen
(giving the world a little :SrNupsen: )



[EDIT: Oh yes, I've spent my hours (and I use Coranto for a non-profit project, go figure), but I won't count those hours in here]
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Postby msbzdragn » Sun Mar 06, 2005 9:58 pm

SrNupsen wrote:Michael - sorry, but I think you're out of line here, and I'll be happy to discuss it with you in a more private place.

I just wanted to make the point that no, I'm definitely not among the persons spending the most time on Coranto - that honor belongs to kriko, Parahead and cerberos IMO.

Underneath all the flaming, I found reasonable arguments in this thread to make the version checking an addon, enabled by default.

What do you say, Michael?

SrNupsen
(giving the world a little :SrNupsen: )



[EDIT: Oh yes, I've spent my hours (and I use Coranto for a non-profit project, go figure), but I won't count those hours in here]


Nupsen

As always, you're free to message me to discuss. ;) And I was trying to give credit where due, Kriko in particular has been doing a lot, but I don't think you give yourself credit for the time spent on moderation, working on the new site design, etc.
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Postby msbzdragn » Sun Mar 06, 2005 10:00 pm

cerberos76 wrote:The reasons I wish to see this function as a separate addon are:
- Clear separation between internal functions and a call to a third party script (which is not part of this program).
- Separate maintanance between core and third party function. This guarantees the users of the script in case anything happens to the site maintaining the third party script (no infinite time calls to an external script).
- Allows easy upgrade of the version checking script independently of any core change. (e.g. if the script name changes to lv.cgi or lv.asp or whatever).
- Easy treatment of this function as any addon, with possibility of enabling/disabling it at will via the Addon Manager
- Fuller respect of privacy and interpretation of the privacy indication in the script, forcing the application of the privacy options for addons (which both means immediate application of such options and easy changes in case of their future change to the privacy options for addons, without need to change the core to adapt the version checking).


I will leave this up to those familiar with the core (with a particular weight on Parahead's opinion, which I respect) to give me a second opinion on whether these are adequate reasons to make such a change.

Can you please confirm where you apparently find a 404, Cerberos? I am unable to find any 404 from a link in my Coranto v1.24 installation.
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Postby cerberos76_ » Sun Mar 06, 2005 10:14 pm

msbzdragn wrote: Can you please confirm where you apparently find a 404, Cerberos? I am unable to find any 404 from a link in my Coranto v1.24 installation.


In the setup routine. At the end of it, it calls a phantom email collection page on coranto.gweilo. The email collection program which was once on coranto.gweilo was not maintained or anyway stopped working very long time ago. SrNupsen reported that problem and there was also a discussion on this forum, with successive removal of that function in .30.x.
There are also additional 404 problems connected to amphibianweb.

If I tell something, you should trust it. I have certainly analysed the code in very great detail and I know what is doing.
Coranto addons:
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* PartialRebuild, CPU-friendly enhancement of FullBuild
* URLColumn, URLs for multiple Categories/Profiles
* Tickit!, Javascript News Tickers/Faders for Coranto!
* AddonEnabler, enables or disables single, multiple or all addons in one go
* SubmitMultiple, post consecutive news in an automatic loop!
* RSSAdvanced, RelatedNews ....

Get them at: http://coranto.gweilo.org/addons/
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Postby LoneOwl » Sun Mar 06, 2005 10:36 pm

Just out of curiousity, one of Elvii's intentions was to put categories into the core. After all, in the core since build 29 there was stuff for categories even though the categories addon wasn't even in the core distribution. Essential enough to put some of it in the core, but not essential enough to bundle it with Coranto?

Anyway, why not integrate the categories addon into Coranto? At it's simplest, it'd be moving code from the addon into the core directly, with proper closures where needed for scoping. There could be some work done to streamline it, but overall I don't see that it'd be too difficult.
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Postby SrNupsen » Sun Mar 06, 2005 10:52 pm

msbzdragn wrote:Can you please confirm where you apparently find a 404, Cerberos? I am unable to find any 404 from a link in my Coranto v1.24 installation.


Actually there were two issues: One being what cerberos mentioned about the e-mail list program. I actually made you aware of this some 6 months ago, and you told me you would install "mail manager" (insert correct name of software here) in the correct directory.

The other issue that I'm aware of is Coranto trying to pull some CSS from this site (more specifically, /coranto/crscript.css) - I was made aware of this by Parahead today, and uploaded the correct CSS to that location - so this problem is eliminated from today.

And there might be others that cerb knows about.

SrNupsen
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Coranto is free software. I am available for custom work or troubleshooting.

http://www.sundaune.no - transkripsjon, webdesign, nettsider, tekstbyrå
http://www.vagbladet.no - satire, politikk, kultur, sport, nettavis
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Postby cerberos76_ » Sun Mar 06, 2005 11:08 pm

LoneOwl wrote:Just out of curiousity, one of Elvii's intentions was to put categories into the core. After all, in the core since build 29 there was stuff for categories even though the categories addon wasn't even in the core distribution. Essential enough to put some of it in the core, but not essential enough to bundle it with Coranto?

Anyway, why not integrate the categories addon into Coranto? At it's simplest, it'd be moving code from the addon into the core directly, with proper closures where needed for scoping. There could be some work done to streamline it, but overall I don't see that it'd be too difficult.


LoneOwl, I agree that the category addon is important. But the current addon works great. It was never distributed with the core once again for historical reasons. Coranto will anyway work great also without it.
I think that if this was felt essential I would think to place that addon in the core distribution enabled. But there are more urgent issues to work on.
Coranto addons:
* GuestPost, one click guestposting
* MoveIt!, Advanced Backup and site transfer
* PartialRebuild, CPU-friendly enhancement of FullBuild
* URLColumn, URLs for multiple Categories/Profiles
* Tickit!, Javascript News Tickers/Faders for Coranto!
* AddonEnabler, enables or disables single, multiple or all addons in one go
* SubmitMultiple, post consecutive news in an automatic loop!
* RSSAdvanced, RelatedNews ....

Get them at: http://coranto.gweilo.org/addons/
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Postby LoneOwl » Mon Mar 07, 2005 2:31 am

If you're going to at all go by what Elvii would have wanted, we can do what we knew he wanted, which was to have categories in the core.

Also, I think if you take a look at the coranto downloads, you'll find that since 1.02 the categories addon has been included.

And, since you said you do not feel categories are essential, as with version checking, then shouldn't all category information be put into an addon?

Just trying to ensure no double standards.
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Postby msbzdragn » Mon Mar 07, 2005 3:14 am

SrNupsen wrote:
msbzdragn wrote:Can you please confirm where you apparently find a 404, Cerberos? I am unable to find any 404 from a link in my Coranto v1.24 installation.


Actually there were two issues: One being what cerberos mentioned about the e-mail list program. I actually made you aware of this some 6 months ago, and you told me you would install "mail manager" (insert correct name of software here) in the correct directory.

The other issue that I'm aware of is Coranto trying to pull some CSS from this site (more specifically, /coranto/crscript.css) - I was made aware of this by Parahead today, and uploaded the correct CSS to that location - so this problem is eliminated from today.

And there might be others that cerb knows about.

SrNupsen


My apologies; six months ago coincided with the start of my peak, busiest time of year. It must have slipped my mind. Since we're doing a complete site redesign anyway, can you have Kriko look at replacing the mailing list with something suitable styled appropriately please?
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Postby Parahead » Mon Mar 07, 2005 8:21 pm

msbzdragn wrote:
cerberos76 wrote:The reasons I wish to see this function as a separate addon are:
- Clear separation between internal functions and a call to a third party script (which is not part of this program).
- Separate maintanance between core and third party function. This guarantees the users of the script in case anything happens to the site maintaining the third party script (no infinite time calls to an external script).
- Allows easy upgrade of the version checking script independently of any core change. (e.g. if the script name changes to lv.cgi or lv.asp or whatever).
- Easy treatment of this function as any addon, with possibility of enabling/disabling it at will via the Addon Manager
- Fuller respect of privacy and interpretation of the privacy indication in the script, forcing the application of the privacy options for addons (which both means immediate application of such options and easy changes in case of their future change to the privacy options for addons, without need to change the core to adapt the version checking).

I will leave this up to those familiar with the core (with a particular weight on Parahead's opinion, which I respect) to give me a second opinion on whether these are adequate reasons to make such a change.
My opinion is this...

Leave the version checking in the core, but make it easier than it currently is to let addons override the version-check. Why? Well, if this functionality is in an addon it is probably very few users that will actually download and enable it. And the argument that if something would happen that made coranto.gwe ilo.org "disfunctional" it is easier to switch to another URL isn´t really holding. We would still be needing one central place for Coranto information and development... And this is where the easier addon overriding could be used for a period of time.

May I suggest that we focused of what functionality around the version-checking that is needed for a while? The version-check stuff is all visually located at the bottom of the Main Page in Coranto. If we summarize the functionality that exists in the old version-check (Coranto 1.24) and the current one (Coranto 1.30.10) the list would be:
a) A check for the current stable version (currently presented as an image). Enable Yes/No.
b) A check for latest development version (currently an image). (Enabled together with stable version check).
c) Urgent notification (currently an image). Enable Yes/No.
d) Download upgrade if available, presented as a text-link. Enabled if Public site.
e) Present one or more links to Coranto sites. Enabled if Public site.

If all these options where defined as variables containing the URL:s to create the images they could easily be changed by an addon, but the actual handling of when they are printed out is handled by the core is what I think would be the best thing to do. Actually I have a (more or less) working example that uses this approach.

One thing to consider is how important the Public/Private-option is. If a user has set the option to Private, should the Version Check(s) and/or Urgent Notification override this setting? In both the old check (Coranto 1.24) and the current one these checks to a third party domain is performed.

And as I see it both the old check and the current check contains another "problem". The old one sends the name and e-mail of the superadmin to the third party script, the new one sends OS info, browser info and IP of the current user. Is this OK? I understand the thought behind it, but do we use this info in some way? If yes, shouldn´t this be explained and optional to the admin to decide if he want to submit this info or not.

I am putting together a working example of a new version-check that has all this functionality I describe. The third party scripts is not taken into account though.
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Postby msbzdragn » Mon Mar 07, 2005 8:30 pm

Parahead wrote:One thing to consider is how important the Public/Private-option is. If a user has set the option to Private, should the Version Check(s) and/or Urgent Notification override this setting? In both the old check (Coranto 1.24) and the current one these checks to a third party domain is performed.


Don't have time to answer the other stuff right now, but if the installation is set to private, in my opinion the version check and urgent notification should definitely be disabled.
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Postby cerberos76_ » Mon Mar 07, 2005 9:34 pm

The separation between core functionality and additional functionality must be clear. This is why I have come to the conclusion that an addon is the best practical approach and this is why any call to third party scripts will be removed from the core.
I wish to see Coranto being usable with no errors and no problems today as in 10 years time with or without any site supporting it. I can bring many examples of exceptionally good software programs which made the stupid choice to have a version checking enabled and not switchable by the user. These programs became obsolete (or at minimum not professionally looking) once their maintainer disappeared or changed his plans.

Version checking (however you do it) or auto-upgrades or any other idea around it, is useful yes. But it is not necessary in the core.
As we have seen both amphibianweb and this same site had trouble in the past (even in the last 6 months!) to keep some supporting functions alive and updated. This might happen for 1000 reasons, often nothing to do with the capacity of the site owner or its interests. But happens.
And it can be alleviated putting off the responsability from the core to the addon, which at least is clearly recognised as an external part to the program and can be very easily disabled by anyone.
I am absolutely firm on this point.

If the problem is how many users will use it, of course you can question how useful is this function if no-one would download it... But even then distributing the addon in the package auto-enabled to start with is certainly making almost as in the core.

In terms of functionality, the split between core and addon help solving the problem. The core will only need to provide a hook.
The addon(s) creator will think to the best method.

Any addon creator will make clear why and how its addon uses data sourced by the remote site, and how it stores, make them secure. The users will decide if they are trustworthy or not. And at the same time they will have the protection of the 'privacy' option which will (as needs to) override any other notification or latest version message.
Coranto addons:
* GuestPost, one click guestposting
* MoveIt!, Advanced Backup and site transfer
* PartialRebuild, CPU-friendly enhancement of FullBuild
* URLColumn, URLs for multiple Categories/Profiles
* Tickit!, Javascript News Tickers/Faders for Coranto!
* AddonEnabler, enables or disables single, multiple or all addons in one go
* SubmitMultiple, post consecutive news in an automatic loop!
* RSSAdvanced, RelatedNews ....

Get them at: http://coranto.gweilo.org/addons/
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Postby LoneOwl » Tue Mar 08, 2005 12:11 am

So essentially, what I'm reading is that for a private site, without editing something or other by hand, beyond most newbies, it would be impossible to turn on version checking?
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Postby msbzdragn » Tue Mar 08, 2005 12:18 am

LoneOwl wrote:So essentially, what I'm reading is that for a private site, without editing something or other by hand, beyond most newbies, it would be impossible to turn on version checking?


Yes, because by definition version checking (which HAS to contact another server to find out whether there is a newer version) is not a private process. As soon as you contact another server, you show up in that server's logs.

To enable version checking, you should have to first make the site public, then explicitly choose to enable version checking.
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Postby LoneOwl » Tue Mar 08, 2005 4:05 am

Then perhaps it would be beneficial to set it to a private site for all users except admins for which it would be public, at the admin's choice of course? Something to that effect. Even the CIA has the internet(after all, how else can they go to terrorist organiztion's websites?).
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