Coranto 1.30.10

Archive of notes and cross input on Dev versions of Coranto (1.25.1 and Older)

Moderators: Dale Ray, SrNupsen, Bluetooth, Jackanape

Postby cerberos76_ » Sat Mar 05, 2005 10:54 pm

msbzdragn wrote:
Cerberos

May I ask for the (millionth?) time that you please confirm you will not be placing any code that references other servers than coranto.gwe ilo.org and the server Coranto has been installed on by the user in the core?

Some time ago you stated your intention to completely change the setup and other routines to your server. I stated at the time that I do not want you to do this, since it increases the chances of future problems should a server go down, or you disappear. Since that time I have asked you to clarify this numerous times, and to the best of my knowledge you have failed to do so.


I said and repeat: my next build will have all those functions removed.
I would have done in this build, as this is already done in my version .10. But Parahead was too in a hurry to pass me his modifications and merge mine before putting out 1.30.10. I cannot control others...


I want the current mechanisms for checking core version numbering, etc. (all the functions that point to this server) retained in any core builds you release. You may, if you wish to change these routines, do so via an *optional, seperately downloaded* addon - but you may not remove these routines from the core to force people to use the addon, and you may not change these routines in the core to point to your own servers, even in test builds.


I wish the core to be time-proof and very linear.
And as I said elsewhere, the version checking is NOT something essential and furthermore needs constant maintanance. This is the reason why I say: let's put this as an addon. And then if anyone has interest, he will make sure this is uptodate, but the core will NOT depend on any site at all.


As I've stated several times, I am happy for you to have the access required to this server to make any changes you need to the backend scripts, so there's no need for you to use your own server, even for a test build.

Sorry for the long and dramatic post, but it concerns me that I have aired this several times and really received no response, other than hearing somewhere a suggestion you were going to put the changed code in an addon instead.


I can only make changes if releases pass trough me before being posted. This did not happen for 1.30.10. I repeat: "my" version 1.30.10 is without any version checking at all, so it is just question of being ableto merge this with the other fixes that Parahead put out today.
Coranto addons:
* GuestPost, one click guestposting
* MoveIt!, Advanced Backup and site transfer
* PartialRebuild, CPU-friendly enhancement of FullBuild
* URLColumn, URLs for multiple Categories/Profiles
* Tickit!, Javascript News Tickers/Faders for Coranto!
* AddonEnabler, enables or disables single, multiple or all addons in one go
* SubmitMultiple, post consecutive news in an automatic loop!
* RSSAdvanced, RelatedNews ....

Get them at: http://coranto.gweilo.org/addons/
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Postby msbzdragn » Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:10 pm

I will make one slight concession on this. Version checking can be moved from the core to an addon ONLY if the current version checking mechanism (or one that points to this server) is retained in the core distribution as an addon.

I will not allow Coranto to be distributed without a version checking mechanism in the core package.
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Postby cerberos76_ » Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:15 pm

Parahead,

1) I am not blaming you.
I am simply not happy to hear Dragon complaining with me because 1.30.10 does not contain some changes which I promised and already applied to my version. I had asked you to have the changedfiles to do the merges before releasing it. As obvious I did not want to release another version before the build bug was fixed, but once that fix was ready it would have been nice to have the possibility to merge my changes in this version.

2) For the link: once again I repeat: it is there to help spreading good words on the program, as an option. I believe that the Coranto alpha site is an excellent showcase.
I do not understand your comments on the author. Unfortunately, Elvii site is in cybersquatter's hands, so the only credit we can give him is mentioning his name throught the program. As of today a link to CTUS or a link to Coranto Alpha (or other Coranto sites) is much more useful to the program than a link to amhibianweb (which can only discredit it).
Coranto addons:
* GuestPost, one click guestposting
* MoveIt!, Advanced Backup and site transfer
* PartialRebuild, CPU-friendly enhancement of FullBuild
* URLColumn, URLs for multiple Categories/Profiles
* Tickit!, Javascript News Tickers/Faders for Coranto!
* AddonEnabler, enables or disables single, multiple or all addons in one go
* SubmitMultiple, post consecutive news in an automatic loop!
* RSSAdvanced, RelatedNews ....

Get them at: http://coranto.gweilo.org/addons/
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Postby LoneOwl » Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:21 pm

"Come on people now. Smile on your brother. Everybody get together. Try to love one another. Right now."
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Postby cerberos76_ » Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:27 pm

msbzdragn wrote:I will make one slight concession on this. Version checking can be moved from the core to an addon ONLY if the current version checking mechanism (or one that points to this server) is retained in the core distribution as an addon.

I will not allow Coranto to be distributed without a version checking mechanism in the core package.


Dragon,
instead of trying to argue as if it was a personal matter, could I ask you to place some technical comments on this issue?

I think it is undeniable that to have good maintainability in the code you need to try and remove parts which are not essential.
I have nothing against an addon that does the version checking and any further processing. I have my doubts on the needs for this addon to be distributed with the main package. In it we only have official essential addons. Do you feel a version checking is essential to the program? Why?
Coranto addons:
* GuestPost, one click guestposting
* MoveIt!, Advanced Backup and site transfer
* PartialRebuild, CPU-friendly enhancement of FullBuild
* URLColumn, URLs for multiple Categories/Profiles
* Tickit!, Javascript News Tickers/Faders for Coranto!
* AddonEnabler, enables or disables single, multiple or all addons in one go
* SubmitMultiple, post consecutive news in an automatic loop!
* RSSAdvanced, RelatedNews ....

Get them at: http://coranto.gweilo.org/addons/
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Postby msbzdragn » Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:27 pm

cerberos76 wrote:Parahead,

1) I am not blaming you.
I am simply not happy to hear Dragon complaining with me because 1.30.10 does not contain some changes which I promised and already applied to my version. I had asked you to have the changedfiles to do the merges before releasing it. As obvious I did not want to release another version before the build bug was fixed, but once that fix was ready it would have been nice to have the possibility to merge my changes in this version.


There would not be a problem if you'd not carefully ignored my concerns for the last month or more, Cerberos.

The changes you promised are not anything anybody have been asking for, and seem to have a lot more to do with promoting your site (ie. your own self-interest) than anything else.

I am not naive, and I will not allow this to continue. I have taken the legal responsibility for Coranto distribution on my shoulders; I have paid to keep this site running for a significant time. The decision of what will be allowed on this site hence rests with me, NOT you.[/quote]

* Version checking will remain in the core, or in the core package as an addon which is enabled by default.

* Links to sites other than this site from the core package are not allowed, nor will that policy change.

What you do inside your non-core addons is your choice. What you do inside the core is my choice; I've attempted to allow you relatively free rein for that, and you are taking advantage of this to promote your own site.

This is not the first time we've had issues like this with you. In the history of this site, I have received more complaints about you than just about any other, from a wide range of people connected to this site. I have aired my concerns, and I have told you what is not acceptable. You will abide by that, or you will not be allowed to release your distributions on this site, or advertise them on this site.
Michael R. Tomkins
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Postby msbzdragn » Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:34 pm

cerberos76 wrote:Dragon,
instead of trying to argue as if it was a personal matter, could I ask you to place some technical comments on this issue?

I think it is undeniable that to have good maintainability in the code you need to try and remove parts which are not essential.
I have nothing against an addon that does the version checking and any further processing. I have my doubts on the needs for this addon to be distributed with the main package. In it we only have official essential addons. Do you feel a version checking is essential to the program? Why?


Version checking is absolutely essential in the core package, because most people will not bother to add it themselves - and without it they are not aware when serious bugs or security problems are discovered (both of which we have had before).

With it, they have a better chance of finding out about such problems, and upgrading.

You are being very duplicitous here. Initially you aimed simply to redirect the version check to your site; when I complained about that, you changed tactics and decided you'd make your version check an addon and strip version checking from the core (forcing people to use your addon, and achieving your original goal).

How can you now claim version checking is so terribly bad to have in the core package, when you yourself wanted it there so long as it pointed at your own sight?

I'm not stupid Cerb, and I can see past your maneuvering to what's really going on here.
Michael R. Tomkins
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Do NOT send me instant messages asking for Coranto help without me telling you explicitly to do so. You WILL be placed on ignore if you do so; I don't have time to provide personal tech support to every person who IM's me. Sorry!
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Postby LoneOwl » Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:45 pm

cerberos76 wrote:I have my doubts on the needs for this addon to be distributed with the main package. In it we only have official essential addons.
Uhhh..... How is the Modify News: User Column addon essential?
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Postby cerberos76_ » Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:52 pm

Dragon,
you are insulting those who have worked hard (much more than you, with respect) to improve the script.

I accept all the comments you might have on the technical side, as your explanation of the reasons for asking the version checking. I respect your opinion on that, even if I have a different opinion on that point.

But all the rest is simply a personal attack which I see no reasons or space for and I will not allow. I ask you (and everyone) to keep a serious and respectful behaviour towards those who spare their time for free work and free support.

Version checking was placed on my server experimentally on one single release (1.30.9) to enable me to verify:
- an alpha version checking script
- some code for urgent messaging
this was mainly to replace an obsolete function which was called from the core and did not exist anymore on this site (becaue the maintainer of that function had disappeared)...

After comments received on these forums (and this should reassure you that I read the serious comments and take them on board) I come to the conclusion that the best way forward was to remove *any* link from the core. And this for the simple reason of a more future-proof core (which would not have to rely on *any* server at all).

I hope to see collaboration from now on and no attacks for no reason.
Coranto addons:
* GuestPost, one click guestposting
* MoveIt!, Advanced Backup and site transfer
* PartialRebuild, CPU-friendly enhancement of FullBuild
* URLColumn, URLs for multiple Categories/Profiles
* Tickit!, Javascript News Tickers/Faders for Coranto!
* AddonEnabler, enables or disables single, multiple or all addons in one go
* SubmitMultiple, post consecutive news in an automatic loop!
* RSSAdvanced, RelatedNews ....

Get them at: http://coranto.gweilo.org/addons/
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Postby cerberos76_ » Sat Mar 05, 2005 11:58 pm

LoneOwl wrote:
cerberos76 wrote:I have my doubts on the needs for this addon to be distributed with the main package. In it we only have official essential addons.
Uhhh..... How is the Modify News: User Column addon essential?


I guess it was considered so by Elvii who included it in the official release b29. I personally agree with you that that addon is not essential, but given it was in the official last release of the core, it is also an affective gesture to maintain it in the distribution (and is anyway a reasonably useful addon for multiple-posters sites).
Coranto addons:
* GuestPost, one click guestposting
* MoveIt!, Advanced Backup and site transfer
* PartialRebuild, CPU-friendly enhancement of FullBuild
* URLColumn, URLs for multiple Categories/Profiles
* Tickit!, Javascript News Tickers/Faders for Coranto!
* AddonEnabler, enables or disables single, multiple or all addons in one go
* SubmitMultiple, post consecutive news in an automatic loop!
* RSSAdvanced, RelatedNews ....

Get them at: http://coranto.gweilo.org/addons/
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Postby msbzdragn » Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:00 am

cerberos76 wrote:Dragon,
you are insulting those who have worked hard (much more than you, with respect) to improve the script.

I accept all the comments you might have on the technical side, as your explanation of the reasons for asking the version checking. I respect your opinion on that, even if I have a different opinion on that point.

But all the rest is simply a personal attack which I see no reasons or space for and I will not allow. I ask you (and everyone) to keep a serious and respectful behaviour towards those who spare their time for free work and free support.

Version checking was placed on my server experimentally on one single release (1.30.9) to enable me to verify:
- an alpha version checking script
- some code for urgent messaging
this was mainly to replace an obsolete function which was called from the core and did not exist anymore on this site (becaue the maintainer of that function had disappeared)...

After comments received on these forums (and this should reassure you that I read the serious comments and take them on board) I come to the conclusion that the best way forward was to remove *any* link from the core. And this for the simple reason of a more future-proof core (which would not have to rely on *any* server at all).

I hope to see collaboration from now on and no attacks for no reason.


If you want to see no attacks, why do you make comments like "much more than you, with respect"? :roll:

With respect, I have probably put more time into Coranto and ensuring it continues than almost anybody else here; exceptions being Kriko and Nupsen, and recently Parahead as well.

I am not the only person who has issues with the change you attempted to make; pretty much everybody who has commented on the matter says that version checking should remain pointed at this server.

You have no reason to place version checks or anything else for that matter pointing to your site; even the alphas should be placed here. I have numerous times offered to give you FTP access to this site, for exactly the reasons Parahead pointed out. Our community is not large enough to survive being spread thin across multiple sites.
Michael R. Tomkins
Administrator, 'Unofficial Coranto / NewsPro Forums'

Mitsubishi Diamante Forum

Do NOT send me instant messages asking for Coranto help without me telling you explicitly to do so. You WILL be placed on ignore if you do so; I don't have time to provide personal tech support to every person who IM's me. Sorry!
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Postby msbzdragn » Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:03 am

cerberos76 wrote:
LoneOwl wrote:
cerberos76 wrote:I have my doubts on the needs for this addon to be distributed with the main package. In it we only have official essential addons.
Uhhh..... How is the Modify News: User Column addon essential?


I guess it was considered so by Elvii who included it in the official release b29. I personally agree with you that that addon is not essential, but given it was in the official last release of the core, it is also an affective gesture to maintain it in the distribution (and is anyway a reasonably useful addon for multiple-posters sites).


OK - so Elvii also put version checking into the core package. Hence it will remain there as an "affective gesture" as you put it. I will allow it to be moved to an addon if you or others can make a GOOD case for doing so. If you cannot do so, you can add hooks to allow an addon to replace it, but it shall remain in the core build.

This site has remained in place for almost three years now, and is not going anywhere (it will remain for as long as we get at least one forum post every month), so suggesting that it is not reliable to point to this server is hardly a good reason.
Michael R. Tomkins
Administrator, 'Unofficial Coranto / NewsPro Forums'

Mitsubishi Diamante Forum

Do NOT send me instant messages asking for Coranto help without me telling you explicitly to do so. You WILL be placed on ignore if you do so; I don't have time to provide personal tech support to every person who IM's me. Sorry!
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Postby cerberos76_ » Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:43 am

Michael, why do you continue being aggressive towards others?

My comment was: [respect] "those who have worked hard (much more than you, with respect) to improve the script".
And I can guaranteee you that I have worked countless hours for this script to find bugs, fix them, implement new functions, helping documentation etc.
'much more than you' was simply meant to remember that you have not contributed to the programming of the core. And yet I respect what you say, if you propose it in a reasonable fashion and do not try insulting me at any possible occasion for no reason whatsoever.
So why don't you try to be respectful and have a peaceful approach as well?

The problem as far as I understand it is:
- you wish to see a version checking function automatically enabled as part of the core distribution.

Given your arguments on the subject (which might hold if we think to newbies who do not check regular updates) I say:
- I will implement this request as an addon calling the current version checking function that is present on this site (http://coranto.org/scripts/upgrade.php).
- The addon will be distributed with the core package, given its 'security'-oriented nature.
- I will make sure this addon is automatically enabled if the user chooses so at set-up time (if he replies yes to the "Version checking?" question, as it is already now).
- This addon will respect the privacy rules applicable to all addons, which means that if a site owner asks for a privacy installation, version checking will be disabled.

But I ask:
- There must be a maintainer of the backend function on this site.
I do not wish to be such maintainer and I will not write or modify or check the script in question. Maybe SrNupsen can keep it updated?
I have no idea of what this script itself does. I hope simply gets a version in and outputs the latest stable version out.
- The data collected from such version checking will not be given to any third parties (neither sold or given for free). A disclaimer will need to be included in addon itself with guarantees towards the excecution of such promise. Any responsability for the good maintainance of the script and legal implications on the database of collected data will be on its maintainer (ie you as responsible for coranto.gwe ilo.org).
I will not tolerate episodes of people stealing or publishing such data, as happened in the past

Do you feel this satisfies your needs and sufficiently serves Coranto future progress?
Coranto addons:
* GuestPost, one click guestposting
* MoveIt!, Advanced Backup and site transfer
* PartialRebuild, CPU-friendly enhancement of FullBuild
* URLColumn, URLs for multiple Categories/Profiles
* Tickit!, Javascript News Tickers/Faders for Coranto!
* AddonEnabler, enables or disables single, multiple or all addons in one go
* SubmitMultiple, post consecutive news in an automatic loop!
* RSSAdvanced, RelatedNews ....

Get them at: http://coranto.gweilo.org/addons/
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Postby msbzdragn » Sun Mar 06, 2005 1:09 am

cerberos76 wrote:Michael, why do you continue being aggressive towards others?

My comment was: [respect] "those who have worked hard (much more than you, with respect) to improve the script".
And I can guaranteee you that I have worked countless hours for this script to find bugs, fix them, implement new functions, helping documentation etc.
'much more than you' was simply meant to remember that you have not contributed to the programming of the core. And yet I respect what you say, if you propose it in a reasonable fashion and do not try insulting me at any possible occasion for no reason whatsoever.


Why do you? I have worked countless hours and (unlike everybody else here) put a not insignificant amount of cash into providing this site, and continue to do so. Yet you belittle my contribution, and claim *I* am being aggressive to you.

I'm not being aggressive - I am being firm. There's a subtle difference.

I am stating what the conditions you will abide by are. I've not insulted you, nor do I plan to - but I will continue to enforce those conditions, out of interest for the future of this script.

The problem as far as I understand it is:
- you wish to see a version checking function automatically enabled as part of the core distribution.


More than that, I don't even want to see it changed to an addon unless there is a GOOD reason to do so, which as yet you have failed to provide.

But I ask:
- There must be a maintainer of the backend function on this site.
I do not wish to be such maintainer and I will not write or modify or check the script in question. Maybe SrNupsen can keep it updated?
I have no idea of what this script itself does. I hope simply gets a version in and outputs the latest stable version out.


There already is a maintainer; me (or whomever I choose to delegate that to). If you don't even understand the current process, why are you changing it, rather than informing yourself about it?

- The data collected from such version checking will not be given to any third parties (neither sold or given for free). A disclaimer will need to be included in addon itself with guarantees towards the excecution of such promise. Any responsability for the good maintainance of the script and legal implications on the database of collected data will be on its maintainer (ie you as responsible for coranto.gwe ilo.org).


This is exactly one of the reasons I don't want anything linked to your server - because I have no control over what you do with it on your server.

We already have such a system in place. The only way to get to those stats are via a securely password-protected web script which three people have access to, or via FTP (which the same three people have access to).

I will not tolerate episodes of people stealing or publishing such data, as happened in the past


This is rather rich, since the only person who stole such data in the past - Phil - was in your (the programmer's) position. Not only that, but when he stole such data I went as far as threatening to take legal action against him and his host if he did anything with that data.

Incidentally, since I don't want your comment to mislead people who weren't aware of the situation, that data was also never published, as you suggest. A total of two people had unauthorised access to that data - the person who was core programmer for Coranto at that time, and the person he recruited to assist with his (now abandoned) script that he was coding as a challenger to Coranto.

It is not for you to "tolerate" regardless. You seem to think you run this server and are in charge of everything; you are not.

Do you feel this satisfies your needs and sufficiently serves Coranto future progress?


If you can provide GOOD reasons to change the current system, yes. If not, then no - we have a reliable system in place and changing it for the sake of change simply introduces the opportunity for new bugs or conflicts. If there is no good reason to change it, I don't want it changed at all.
Michael R. Tomkins
Administrator, 'Unofficial Coranto / NewsPro Forums'

Mitsubishi Diamante Forum

Do NOT send me instant messages asking for Coranto help without me telling you explicitly to do so. You WILL be placed on ignore if you do so; I don't have time to provide personal tech support to every person who IM's me. Sorry!
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Postby cerberos76_ » Sun Mar 06, 2005 1:39 am

msbzdragn wrote:
More than that, I don't even want to see it changed to an addon unless there is a GOOD reason to do so, which as yet you have failed to provide.


The reasons I wish to see this function as a separate addon are:
- Clear separation between internal functions and a call to a third party script (which is not part of this program).
- Separate maintanance between core and third party function. This guarantees the users of the script in case anything happens to the site maintaining the third party script (no infinite time calls to an external script).
- Allows easy upgrade of the version checking script independently of any core change. (e.g. if the script name changes to lv.cgi or lv.asp or whatever).
- Easy treatment of this function as any addon, with possibility of enabling/disabling it at will via the Addon Manager
- Fuller respect of privacy and interpretation of the privacy indication in the script, forcing the application of the privacy options for addons (which both means immediate application of such options and easy changes in case of their future change to the privacy options for addons, without need to change the core to adapt the version checking).

There already is a maintainer; me (or whomever I choose to delegate that to). If you don't even understand the current process, why are you changing it, rather than informing yourself about it?


I inserted this request, as for a similar script hosted on coranto.gweilo and called within Coranto, there was no mainteiner at all, to the point that the script disappeared and users were directed to a 404 page.
I am happy if you wish to maintain personally this version checking script.



This is exactly one of the reasons I don't want anything linked to your server - because I have no control over what you do with it on your server.

We already have such a system in place. The only way to get to those stats are via a securely password-protected web script which three people have access to, or via FTP (which the same three people have access to).


Again, I am not accusing this site or saying that the thing is not done properly. Simply I wish to have it clearly stated.
Any person who puts up calls and collection of data is responsible for it.
I have no problem in taking responsability for what I do on my sites, but do not wish to be blamed for what might happen on this site. This is also an extra reason for the division between core and addon for version control. So, each part can take more easily responsability of what does.

Incidentally, since I don't want your comment to mislead people who weren't aware of the situation, that data was also never published, as you suggest. A total of two people had unauthorised access to that data - the person who was core programmer for Coranto at that time, and the person he recruited to assist with his (now abandoned) script that he was coding as a challenger to Coranto.


Michael, please do not contradict me when I talk about something serious.
I was given access to that logging data, even if I did never have any access to your site or ftp or database.

It was published (I hope temporarily) on a fully public web site, and a link to it was passed to me (and presumibly to others) by Mark Olson who was not happy that such data was collected in the first place and was showing it to try and find help to fight against its collection. I have no idea how Mark got those logs from coranto.gweilo, but I was so angered by this that immediately coded a 'cleaned-up' version Coranto 1.00 (which I still have on my hard disk) and passed on to some friends to help them get out of future logging activity (at the time there was no option for 'privacy').

Many protests consequent to the publication of those data prompted the introduction of the privacy options soon after in the core.
I can also name a few organisations that were listed on that log, as I remember very clearly being them quite well known.
I was not happy to see those data freely circulating and posted around the web wihtout any consent of the involved parties. I understand it might have been done without your consent as well, but this does not mean that the data was not published. So let's not pretend that nothing happened.

This is also a reason to tighten the security around the data. And one other reason why keeping the function in an addon will help separating the functions even more and give responsability of each part to the appropriate party (ie. coders will not be blamed if anything happens to that data; and even better they will not even have any need to access it!).
Coranto addons:
* GuestPost, one click guestposting
* MoveIt!, Advanced Backup and site transfer
* PartialRebuild, CPU-friendly enhancement of FullBuild
* URLColumn, URLs for multiple Categories/Profiles
* Tickit!, Javascript News Tickers/Faders for Coranto!
* AddonEnabler, enables or disables single, multiple or all addons in one go
* SubmitMultiple, post consecutive news in an automatic loop!
* RSSAdvanced, RelatedNews ....

Get them at: http://coranto.gweilo.org/addons/
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