My thoughs on the lacking features of Coranto

[Dale Ray]

When you spoke to me, you made claims that "the community" was asking for a Coranto Senate. When I asked you who "the community" was, I already knew the answer, and although you sidestepped the question it is immediately clear when reading this thread that you consider yourself to be "the community". It is you who has requested this, and you have the agreement of one other person, plus a mild approval from Cerberos. Two, or possibly three people, does not represent "the community"...

That was msbzdragn responding to Aerosoul.

I am also in favor of a senate or some other type of organized group to manage the future development of Coranto (which means both the code base and this site). I cannot let stand msbzdragn's assertion that there are only a few would would like this. I think that the number is greater than just one or two. If you are in favor of a governing body say so.

I feel that I am part of this community and I agree there is a need for some governing group. There is a need for clearly defined roles and responsibilities. There is a need for some of the day to day operation of the site to be delegated, so that everything doesn't stop when one person is unavailable.

This group does not need to all have equal status, but it is clear that unless specific tasks are delegated to specific people this community is not going to move forward. The names and responsibilities need to be clearly spelled out for visitors who come here looking for help. There needs to be procedures set up for choosing people and replacing them if they leave or can not continue to fulfill their responsibility.

Is msbzdragn saying that anyone willing to volunteer to accept responsibility is by definition a "power monger"? His inference that because others took this route everyone will is an insult to those who volunteer their time and effort in support of Coranto. What is his definition of "power monger"? Anyone who disagrees with him? Stop using buzz words and start figuring out how to set up a management structure that can work. Enter these discussions with an open mind that isn't poisoned by what people who are no longer here did in the past.

Whoever ends up running this site and being responsible for the future of Coranto has to develop and implement a plan. Currently there is no plan, no road-map for what comes next. I think it is time for a plan to be made, for the road-map to be published and for the goals that are set to worked toward by the members of this community.

[msbzdragn]

Is msbzdragn saying that anyone willing to volunteer to accept responsibility is by definition a "power monger"? His inference that because others took this route everyone will is an insult to those who volunteer their time and effort in support of Coranto. What is his definition of "power monger"? Anyone who disagrees with him? Stop using buzz words and start figuring out how to set up a management structure that can work. Enter these discussions with an open mind that isn't poisoned by what people who are no longer here did in the past.

OK, I've already put far too much time into this today, so this is my last reply of the day.

The reason that I note that the senate idea will not work is because I was closely involved in it last time, and it didn't work last time. The people involved got along just fine - UNTIL we set up the senate. It immediately devolved into people fighting over their opinions, refusing to back down and agree on things, and rapidly turned into an extremely painful situation.

Coranto is simply not big enough for this kind of thing to work, nor can it really work very well when we don't actually own rights to the code. Hence it has to be controlled by one person, who delegates where and when they choose to who they choose.

Ever heard the saying "Power corrupts?". Like I said, we got along fine last time until the senate thing started, and I remember exactly how far that set us back. Honestly, that was probably the beginning of Phil abandoning the community as well, now that I think about it.

[AeroSoul]

You are absolutely right dragn. This theory of letting one person control everything has worked for perfectly in the past 3 years, I'm sure it's going to continue to screw Coranto for many years to come. I mean, since you say that the senate won't work, we should all stop trying to make things better and give up.... right?

[msbzdragn]

I'm tired of this childish slanging match. Thread closed - it is not "Attack and Insult Michael" day today. I wouldn't tolerate you attacking other forum members like this, and I will not tolerate you attacking me like this other.

[msbzdragn]

Thread reopened after an assurance from Aerosoul that the attacks will stop.

[quiller]

I'm by no means entitled to an opinion, having just gotten back into the Coranto game after a year off, but here are my third-party views:

• The person who has the "rights" to dictatorship over Coranto and the community is not here; by standing in the way of some sort of community-led group, such as this senate, those people are standing in the way of innovation and progress.
• The past is not the present. I've been involved with many online communities that, as a general rule, failed to follow through with ideas. Those same communities, however, have led to successful and thriving projects when given a fair chance. Just because it didn't work before doesn't mean it won't work now.
• By having the attitude that it won't work, you aren't letting it work. You're strangling it before it gets a chance to breath.
• Coranto needs a new design, but that's the least of the problems. What Coranto needs is, as many have said, a plan of action that the rest of the community-- or at least the ones that care-- can grab ahold of and work on together.
• The problem of power struggles are always present. From my three-year stint as a bystander, however, I do not see the Coranto community now as a community but a dictatorship led by Michael. When you say things about you being the only one to decide what happens, it makes me worry that your aversion to the senate is not fear from others, but fear that you might lose your absolute power on the community.

I don't really mind if you ignore me completely; you don't know me. I do hope the lot of you pay attention to what an experienced community leader, albeit not here, thinks about your situation. I might be wrong, but often times an external opinion goes a long way to seeing things others can't.

[msbzdragn]

I'm by no means entitled to an opinion, having just gotten back into the Coranto game after a year off, but here are my third-party views:

• The person who has the "rights" to dictatorship over Coranto and the community is not here; by standing in the way of some sort of community-led group, such as this senate, those people are standing in the way of innovation and progress.
• The past is not the present. I've been involved with many online communities that, as a general rule, failed to follow through with ideas. Those same communities, however, have led to successful and thriving projects when given a fair chance. Just because it didn't work before doesn't mean it won't work now.
• By having the attitude that it won't work, you aren't letting it work. You're strangling it before it gets a chance to breath.
• Coranto needs a new design, but that's the least of the problems. What Coranto needs is, as many have said, a plan of action that the rest of the community-- or at least the ones that care-- can grab ahold of and work on together.
• The problem of power struggles are always present. From my three-year stint as a bystander, however, I do not see the Coranto community now as a community but a dictatorship led by Michael. When you say things about you being the only one to decide what happens, it makes me worry that your aversion to the senate is not fear from others, but fear that you might lose your absolute power on the community.

I don't really mind if you ignore me completely; you don't know me. I do hope the lot of you pay attention to what an experienced community leader, albeit not here, thinks about your situation. I might be wrong, but often times an external opinion goes a long way to seeing things others can't.

The only thing I am afraid of is that the community will completely disintegrate (it was close enough last time), and if that happens, I need to find a new script for my day job. I have a vested interest in making sure this thing works, because I've been using it full-time since before it even was publicly available...

[Parahead]

Hence it has to be controlled by one person, who delegates where and when they choose to who they choose.

The thing is that neither you or Lawrence has been here to delegate? That is why I have been in favor of the senate approach, just to try *something* else, because the last year having one person in control has not been working in my opinion! BTW, you can call me by name, not just "one other person", I do think I deserve that much respect from you?

Actually I am in favor of having one person with final control, but as it has been pointed out and which has been proven by yourself is that when that person is absent things tend to stagnate. I know, I know, the Coranto community isn´t that big and the candidates that you could hand over admin to are not that many, so I do not envy your task to point out such a person at all. I am really happy that you have got a positive response from that person you have selected, hopefully it is someone a little more present than Lawrence has been...

and those will be people who both they and I trust

Which people do you trust that is still around?

And just to get something straight here, I don´t think that switching to a new domain is a good idea either, but it really doesn´t matter what I on my own think. The thing to do would be to present the good and the bad things about using this domain or "switching" to a new one and let people decide which way to go. Like in any democracy...

But you are right msbzdragn, the actual apperance and content at the site is so much more important than the domain name! Is that why we *still* see the 1.22 button at the top right corner?

[msbzdragn]

Hence it has to be controlled by one person, who delegates where and when they choose to who they choose.

The thing is that neither you or Lawrence has been here to delegate? That is why I have been in favor of the senate approach, just to try *something* else, because the last year having one person in control has not been working in my opinion! BTW, you can call me by name, not just "one other person", I do think I deserve that much respect from you?

Actually I am in favor of having one person with final control, but as it has been pointed out and which has been proven by yourself is that when that person is absent things tend to stagnate. I know, I know, the Coranto community isn´t that big and the candidates that you could hand over admin to are not that many, so I do not envy your task to point out such a person at all. I am really happy that you have got a positive response from that person you have selected, hopefully it is someone a little more present than Lawrence has been...

and those will be people who both they and I trust

Which people do you trust that is still around?

And just to get something straight here, I don´t think that switching to a new domain is a good idea either, but it really doesn´t matter what I on my own think. The thing to do would be to present the good and the bad things about using this domain or "switching" to a new one and let people decide which way to go. Like in any democracy...

But you are right msbzdragn, the actual apperance and content at the site is so much more important than the domain name! Is that why we *still* see the 1.22 button at the top right corner?

The reason that button is there is because the original button source template was lost in a hard drive crash (and when I say crash, the thing clicks loud enough to hear it from the other end of the house) right before I handed the site over to Lawrence. I was hoping he'd make something to replace it, but apparently he's not had time.

Like I said, I am working on somebody else taking over the site. For the first short period he wouldn't have internet access as he's moving, but when he's settled in he is somebody who can be here frequently and has a good solid head on his shoulders. I won't say more until this plan is actually settled.

[quiller]

Ya know, another problem here is that people like Parahead and msbzdragn clearly don't get along. You have to approach this with a positive attitude: If you (dragn) think that he (Parahead) is going to get corrupt with power, you'll see that yourself as this grows. Instead, of everyone works together, it'll be fine.

Another thing to consider is the structure of this fictional senate. You could easily set it up so whomever takes over as the end-all-be-all admin is the head with ultimate authority. Those on this senate are simply there to assist and give advice. Control comes from the top, but if that person is gone or unreasonable, the rest of the senate has options. Take a hint from the U.S. gov't: Checks and balances.

[Parahead]

Ya know, another problem here is that people like Parahead and msbzdragn clearly don't get along. You have to approach this with a positive attitude: If you (dragn) think that he (Parahead) is going to get corrupt with power, you'll see that yourself as this grows. Instead, of everyone works together, it'll be fine.

You know quiller, that is just wrong! I have just been a forum member for a year, and I have been using Coranto for more than 2 years. I *do* think msbzdragn has many valid points and like I said, I do not envy the descisions he has to make sometimes. But he hasn´t been around for a while and I do feel I have contributed to this community and to be degraded to an anonumous person used as a weapon between AeroSoul and msbzdragn is kind of rude I think. If you call that being corrupted with power or that I have an urge be heard, so be it...

But I have also seen quite alot of discussions being ended with "thread closed" or "do as you which, I have the final saying anyway" and I am just frustrated about that and that nothing happens, really not my intention to insult anyone. Just like dragn I truly which the best thing for Coranto. But hey, I am a coder, not a politian, so maybe it is better if I just go back to lurking mode and stay out of this...

[quiller]

Bad judgement on my part? Could be. Either way, I'm just trying to jump in and help the discussion however I can.

[faithless]

Like I mentioned to AeroSoul over a private IM moment and a cup of coffee, rather than have Coranto be managed under a democracy, communism or dictatorship, letting my pet turtle control eveything would be the best idea ever.

Come on. If we never try, we never know. If we're not trying one thing simply because it failed in the past, the Wright brothers would never have had invented the aeroplane.

I will publicly state that I support the idea of a Senate, if that swings the vote to its favour. It's important that you state you're either for or against the idea. I recommend everyone else who has participated in this thread so far to stand up and be heard or forever be silenced, and perhaps live with the decisions the rest of the power-mongers, activists, innocent bystanders make here today.

[faithless]

Anyway, I think I just might have a brief idea who dragn has selected to assist/take over from Lawrence. A clue to who he/she is would be that he/she has not participated in this thread so far and could be considered an active community member. Nonetheless, I think he/she would be a good choice. We just have to pray hard he doesn't go AWOL too shortly after.

[msbzdragn]

Anyway, I think I just might have a brief idea who dragn has selected to assist/take over from Lawrence. A clue to who he/she is would be that he/she has not participated in this thread so far and could be considered an active community member. Nonetheless, I think he/she would be a good choice. We just have to pray hard he doesn't go AWOL too shortly after.

You'll know soon enough. In the meantime don't get your hopes up for any one person. All I'll say is that it is a person who almost everybody here has seemed to get on well with, and whom has always seemed to be able to come up with reasoned thoughts on situations, often in a way I wish I was able to do. (I'm not perfect, but I do think I've done more good than bad for Coranto!)