My thoughs on the lacking features of Coranto

[AeroSoul]

I talked to Lawrence yesterday but he was a bit too busy. I'll try to talk to him again about it today when I see him. Perhaps just making faithless or one or two other people admins on these forums (that have proven themselves trustworthy) would be a better idea (so things can get done a bit faster, without solely relying on Lawrence and dragn).

I agree that having "stages" would be a good idea; perhaps there would be two or three people on the senate that would have admin access to the site (ones that are around often and are trustworthy) so the rest of the senate ideas could be implemented quickly.

The purpose of the senate would be to set clear goals for Coranto and it's community; the senate is not going to be (necessarily) designing sites for the design contest, but it will judge the entries (so anyone from the community can submit their site, not just the senate member). When the design is chosen, there will need to be one or two people who will have administrator access to the site who will implement it (here again ties in the idea of "stages"). Once the design issue is behind us, the senate can proceed to discussing other issues (like the internal design of Coranto; facelift, etc...).

[cerberos76_]

Guys:

a) please do not put all topics in one single thread. it is difficult to follow/reply to it.

b) Regarding the suggestion from kriko are:
n 1) is in line with some of my thinking. Something easy to skin and automatically creating templates/styles is needed. I will work on that after I see the core more stable and solve the problem of the database (which is much more fundamental)
n 2) I do not understand properly whatyou mean by grouping news togheter. Maybe you think from the management point of view? Or really moving files between folders? And what for? Maybe some examples would help (please open a thread under core improvement; not in this section).

c) As for the 'senate' etc. I would welcome any new site which promotes Coranto. I will open my one pretty soon and I hope it is of some help to people wishing to know about it more.
As for development, yes I agree that some extra help would be welcome. As I said, I will be starting working more on the core and releasing the alphas more often so we can go in the direction of improvements and testing. If there is a group of people wishing to help that is even better.

[Parahead]

a) please do not put all topics in one single thread. it is difficult to follow/reply to it.

Isn´t derailing threads our specialty?

c) As for the 'senate' etc. I would welcome any new site which promotes Coranto. I will open my one pretty soon and I hope it is of some help to people wishing to know about it more.

I think we are talking about this site, even do I agree that any site promoting Coranto is good, but we do need to have a mothership...

As for development, yes I agree that some extra help would be welcome. As I said, I will be starting working more on the core and releasing the alphas more often so we can go in the direction of improvements and testing. If there is a group of people wishing to help that is even better.

I have been suggesting features, hooks and helped debug the core and will continue doing so, if you would like me to contribute in some other way, just let me know what I can do...

[faithless]

After reading a dozen of constructive posts and concerns about the future of Coranto and this site in general, I feel relieved that there are still people who feel so strongly about Coranto despite the relatively inactivity these few months. Some of the topics discussed here are so old that they have cheese growing on them. Despite them having been discussed to death and stalemated almost every other time, I think it would be proper time to take action on them. Reluctance to take action upon them will not help progress, but instead be a stone (or should we say rock? Boulder seems more like it) in the path of progress.

Site Design
I would say that 80%-90% of relatively active members of the community here would like to see the site design changed and have the various sections reorganised. Frankly, the current design looks so eighties. If I had it my way, a lot of the current content and the site layout in general will be totally reorganised.

An "About Coranto" page would be in order. If you take a look around at the current site, there is almost absolutely nothing to suggest what Coranto is and how it works. There is also not a single page dedicated to telling me what the requirements are for running Coranto and getting it working. A simple page detailing Coranto’s brief and troubled history would no doubt bring much insight to anyone new to Coranto. Telling them that Perl version x.xx.xx and up and at least some basic HTML knowledge is required to run Coranto won’t hurt either.

Another two sections I would like see reorganised are the "Addons" and "QnA" section.
The "Addons" section could use an editorial facelift. Most of the addons do not have their full functionality described nor indicated. Instead of just solely depending on the addon author to update their own addon’s description, we could have an editor on the side to further proof read and then add on what the author might have missed out in his/her description. Another further enhancement we could have is a dedicated Maginot static page for each addon entry, with basic required input from the author such as "Installation/How to Get Things Running", "Version History/Change Log" and "Usage/How to Use the Addon". A commenting feature could also be set up for the addons section where people could submit reviws/comments about the addon without having to sign up for the forums. Bugs and help requests would still have to go through the forums thou.

The "QnA" section could be streamlined and filtered into sub-categories like how normal "FAQ’s" are done on other sites. Instead of having both the question and a brief description of it on the index as we have now, we could have just the question alone. (Example: Instead of "Alternating background colours - easy By L0rdPhi1 (More)", we could have "How to make the background color of your news items cycle through two or more different colors" as the link and question instead.)


Domain Name
The need for a new domain name is moot. This has been discussed to death, but I think it’s time we cast a poll regarding this. The main point of the poll would be to vote for or against a new domain name. After we’ve gotten that out of the way, we can then discuss the list of domain possibilities if the majority is in favour. (The list of domains AeroSoul suggested seems like a good start. I personally would swing in favour of coranto-hq.com)

Site Management
For site management, what we have now is all depended on two individuals, namely Lawrence and cerberos76. With cerberos76 having only the development of the core on his hands, most of the other responsibilities of running the site is on Lawrence. That would mean if Lawrence was to go AWOL or be absent for a certain period of time, the whole community stagnates. Instead of being so dependant on one individual, we could have a team working behind each and every aspect of the day to day running of the site, such that if one was to go "missing", another could cover his job easily and painlessly.

What we could have would be the current team of Lawrence and cerberos76 working on the core of Coranto. However, suggestions of changes to the core and examples of the code involved could still be made to the two of them and perhaps have it implemented in future releases or something.

We could then have the webmaster team, who basically takes care of the "News", "Addons" and "QnA" sections. This could be a team of three, where each is the "caretaker" of one section. Access to the various sections of the site could then be opened up to worthy members of the community and only after approval from the caretakers, would their articles or news/addons entries be allowed to publish.

We would then next have the forum trolling team, who basically trolls the forums for bad posts/topics and takes charge of moving topics posted into the wrong forums or sub forums. That being said, we would also have to maybe reorganise the current forums a bit, maybe moving the "Coranto Bugs" section to the "Coranto Development" forum category.

This is all I have for now (edited for bad English and all). I still have some more suggestions I would like to contribute, but I’ll hold them back till I put them down in proper points.

[AeroSoul]

All good points faithless, especially the idea of "webmaster" and "trolling" teams.

As far as the domain goes, all I need to know is whether "corantohq" is good enough (and dragn agrees to make the current domain forward to that one) and I will register corantohq.org corantohq.net coranto-hq.com coranto-hq.org coranto-hq.net and whatever other variation is needed (though one "main" domain would still need to be chosen).

I sure hope Lawrence comes online tonight so we can get this ball rolling...

[Parahead]

All good points faithless, especially the idea of "webmaster" and "trolling" teams.

I agree, this is in line of the "merit stages" approach...

As far as the domain goes, all I need to know is whether "corantohq" is good enough (and dragn agrees to make the current domain forward to that one) and I will register corantohq.org corantohq.net coranto-hq.com coranto-hq.org coranto-hq.net and whatever other variation is needed (though one "main" domain would still need to be chosen).

Personally I don´t think having a new domain name is a big issue, this one is spread all over the net and at many Coranto installations already, but start a new thread with a poll and a couple of suggestions and we see what kind of response we end up with from the community? But having several registred domains just makes things confusing, deciding on *one* domain name and use that at all time is the best I think.

I sure hope Lawrence comes online tonight so we can get this ball rolling...

This boulder you mean?

If you get hold of him, could you *please* tell him to update the latest version button to 1.23 before he does anything else? Or even better, release a fixed version (1.24?) for the If/Else-bugs in 1.23 and *then* update the button...

[Parahead]

OK, how do we collect site design contributions? I have been playing with one myself, just to have *something* to discuss around (and incourage people to make a better one!)

[EDIT]Linked removed upon request...[/EDIT

[kriko]

Before I go out of the town for a national holiday, I would like to post some of my things too.

Basically, the following designs were made a long time ago. I am not really submitting them, because I think they are out of date, especially from the HTML coding side, but if anyone gets good ideas from them, then they may go ahead with them.
http://factory.dusj.no/crnew/
http://factory.dusj.no/crnew/coranto.html
http://factory.dusj.no/crnew/coranto2.html
http://factory.dusj.no/crnew/coranto3.html

One of my latest design works is located here. It is something that I consider modern from the side of HTML/CSS coding and perhaps even the design.

[AeroSoul]

Could we please hold off on the design contest submissions until the senate is established and a formal set of rules for the contest is in place?

Lawrence didn't come online yesterday... If I don't see him online today, I just might have to ask drang.

[Parahead]

Could we please hold off on the design contest submissions until the senate is established and a formal set of rules for the contest is in place?

Sorry, just a bit edgy to get this thing going, we have been waiting so long... But of course, you are right!

Should there be any kind of guidelines? Some suggestions in no particular order, picked up from previous discussions:
* Only contain original graphics done by the author
* Be prepared to handle Google Ad banners at top of each page
* Appeal to the general public
* Fast to load
* Easy to maintain
* Contain a logo including a maple leaf
* Clearly state (in text!) the current stable and next beta release (at least at welcome page?)
* Follow standards (Must pass through http://validator.w3.org/ and http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/)

Something in that list that shouldn´t be there? Anything else I have forgotten?

[AeroSoul]

All good points, perhaps a few clarifications:

- The Google banner must be displayed at the top of every page (as per dragn's request).
- The design should be able to accommodate the forum within it (so perhaps a navigation bar at the top instead of at the side would be better).

And do we want any strict limitations as far as what kind of coding is permitted? I would suggest XHTML 1.0 strict or better.


Also, I have just talked to dragn, and he is very convinced that the idea of a senate will fail:

Michael R. Tomkins says:
and incidentally the senate idea has already been proven not to work once
Aero says:
Yes, I know
Aero says:
The times have changed. The community has changed. The demands have changed. This senate will not fail like the last one.
Michael R. Tomkins says:
People don't, in general, change though
Michael R. Tomkins says:
The last senate failed because it became a vehicle for petty squabbling and power trips
Michael R. Tomkins says:
The new one would do exactly the same, I can promise you
Aero says:
We now have MANY regulars on the forums who were not there last time. And a lot of the power mongers are gone
Michael R. Tomkins says:
And those "power mongers" didn't become such, until the senate idea came around and they got an overinflated idea of their importance
Michael R. Tomkins says:
The only way this works is to choose one single person, or to at most, who has the time and inclination to control stuff
Aero: The community would rather make SOME attempt at bringing life into Coranto, rather then just continuing to do nothing. If you will not do it, that's fine, Lawrence will. It is obvious that there is tremendous support for this idea and just because you say it will not work, doesn't mean that we should all give up.
Aero: Well, there are two people now that are supposed to meet the demands of the community.
Aero: But they havent, so the community has decided to take the power back into their hands

I really can't say I'm surprised. He did, however, say that he was going to give admin powers to somebody else soon:

Michael R. Tomkins says:
If Lawrence is not able to do anything (and it looks like he hasn't been), I'll select somebody else I feel suitable
Aero says:
Is that going to take another 3 years?
Michael R. Tomkins says:
But I'm not going to say who until I've managed to talk to them first and gain their approval
Michael R. Tomkins says:
Actually, no, I've already contacted them and am awaiting a response
Aero says:
Ah, so it is going to take another 3 years, great
Michael R. Tomkins says:
They need a reasonable amount of time to consider the implications of agreeing
Michael R. Tomkins says:
Not least of which is people who have a sarcastic response to every step taken
Aero says:
Heh, there havent been many steps taken though.
Aero says:
Anyways, thanks for your time.

I sure hope this new person agrees to the task soon. In the meantime, I will continue to try to get in touch with Lawrence.

[msbzdragn]

A couple of notes, Aerosoul:

When you spoke to me, you made claims that "the community" was asking for a Coranto Senate. When I asked you who "the community" was, I already knew the answer, and although you sidestepped the question it is immediately clear when reading this thread that you consider yourself to be "the community". It is you who has requested this, and you have the agreement of one other person, plus a mild approval from Cerberos. Two, or possibly three people, does not represent "the community"...

Secondly, as I noted, yes I have contacted somebody else about running this subdomain on my behalf, and the decision whether to do so will be theirs alone. Regardless though, only that person will be in charge of the subdomain (with reference to me, although I intend to let them do basically whatever they consider to be in the interests of the community). If they choose to deputize anybody to work on specific tasks for them, that is their choice, but they will not be able to provide more than 2 or 3 people with admin access to this site (and those will be people who both they and I trust).

[AeroSoul]

When you spoke to me, you made claims that "the community" was asking for a Coranto Senate. When I asked you who "the community" was, I already knew the answer, and although you sidestepped the question it is immediately clear when reading this thread that you consider yourself to be "the community". It is you who has requested this, and you have the agreement of one other person, plus a mild approval from Cerberos. Two, or possibly three people, does not represent "the community"...

Sorry dragn, I just thought that the people who have posted in this thread really are THE COMMUNITY. They are the most active members, they are the ones who have the most experience with Coranto (and therefore would know what is best for Coranto), and all together they probably make up close to 80% of all posts on these forums.

Oh, and I honestly never expected the domains to be this much of an issue.

[msbzdragn]

When you spoke to me, you made claims that "the community" was asking for a Coranto Senate. When I asked you who "the community" was, I already knew the answer, and although you sidestepped the question it is immediately clear when reading this thread that you consider yourself to be "the community". It is you who has requested this, and you have the agreement of one other person, plus a mild approval from Cerberos. Two, or possibly three people, does not represent "the community"...

Sorry dragn, I just thought that the people who have posted in this thread really are THE COMMUNITY. They are the most active members, they are the ones who have the most experience with Coranto (and therefore would know what is best for Coranto), and all together they probably make up close to 80% of all posts on these forums.

Oh, and I honestly never expected the domains to be this much of an issue.

Aerosoul, the problem is that you are only looking at this from your own viewpoint and are completely blinkered to what anybody else feels. Did you notice that, even in this thread, there are 8 people who have posted and yet only three have shown any support for your senate idea, *including* yourself? You claim the entire community wants it when you speak to me, yet if you exclude yourself as the originator of the idea, you have a total of one person giving strong support, one person giving mild support, four people saying nothing whatsoever about it, and one person (myself) who remembers what happened last time and why, and hence doesn't support the idea. That is hardly anything even *approaching* the community consensus you believe you have.

I would also appreciate your stopping reposting every conversation we have, particularly when you're not always posting them in their entirity and you're hassling me about stuff I've already explained many times on a day when I don't have time to be dealing with this anyway.

I've had a positive reply from the person I am considering putting in charge of the site, and am waiting to get in touch with Lawrence now so I can run things past him. I don't want to offend our main coder by suddenly yanking admin access away from him, but I think he'll probably be relieved because I think he hasn't had time to do anything with the site and feels bad about that, very likely.

[AeroSoul]

Sorry, I just got the impression that there have been enough threads like this one in the past to dignify me saying "community". I guess I was wrong, and we can all continue waiting for another decade for something to happen. If the real "community" hasn't said anything that means we shouldn't do anything and everything is ok, right?

Personally, I think it's nice that you have finally found someone else to take over; I just hope that someone else doesn't end up like you.